Friday, December 9, 2016

Comment Responses

Seattleirish said in part:

Your first quoted paragraph states that you believe tournament play requires more skill while Cash NLHE is more dependent on luck. However, you don't support that argument; why do you feel cash NLHE is more dependent on luck?

The next paragraph compared tournament play to handicapping horses (both require a great deal of knowledge and application of same) and compared Cash NLHE to scratch tickets. 
I'm certain you don't mean to imply cash NLHE is simply random chance. I know from earlier posts of yours that you recognize cash play does require a great deal of applied knowledge and skill. Both tournament and cash NLHE allow players to go all-in, both follow similar betting patterns and card progression. What is it about cash play that you feel is more dependent on the whims of lady luck? I'm not seeing that expressed in your post.

Obviously I did not word it very well. I'm not saying that no limit cash games are equivalent to scratch tickets what I am saying is that the degree that handicapping horse racing would have more skill to it than scratch tickets is equitable to the degree that No Limit Hold'em tournaments have more skill to them than cash games. 

Yes you are correct that they each have required skill sets but I still hold to my opinion the tournament's require far more. The main reason I believe this to be true is as follows.  Any tournament you are given a certain amount of chips and it is your job to do the absolute best you can with them and if you lose them all you are eliminated, you cannot play in it any further, you are gone until the next one. But in a cash game this is not the case provided you've got money in your pocket you get to try over and over and over again until you get it right or until your hand holds up. 

In many situations in a cash game there is no real thought process to it. A classic example is a typical cash game and somebody is under the gun with a pair of fours. Most players are going to toss their $2 into the pot and hope they can hit a set and they're going to do that pretty much every single time they receive that pair, in that position, under those circumstances. It's almost a mindless robotic action.
Now take that hand and position in a tournament and there is so much more to consider and tournament players are not going to do the same thing with those pocket fours every single time. Sometimes we're going to fold them, sometimes we're going to raise them, sometimes we're going to open shove all-in with them, and sometimes we are going to limp with them and what we do with those fours in the example all depends on what the circumstances of the tournament is at. What's in our stack, what are the blind levels, where are we in relation to the money bubble, what are the stacks at our table, dix the money bubble just burst, and I could go on. Obviously, at least to me anyway, when you have more things going on and more decisions that can be made based on what circumstances are this takes a hell of a lot more skill then throwing two $1 chips in the middle time after time and saying to myself I hope I hit a set. 

Pokerdogg said:  

I don't know who Andrew Neeme is, so I googled his name and found his website site. The first post I saw was a WSOP trip report. It says...
I fired at 5 lotteries tournaments during the WSOP:
WSOP $565 Colossus – 731st place for $4027
WSOP $1500 Monster Stack – dnc
WSOP $235 Daily Deepstack – dnc
Venetian DSE $600 – 13th place for $3275
WPT500 $565 – 164th place for $1667
In the cash games between May 27th and July 10th, I put in 203 hours of work and showed a profit at a rate of about $72/hr. The majority of my sessions were 5/10 at the Bellagio, with some 2/5 mixed in around town, as well as a couple 1/2 games at the Golden Nugget for a change of scenery. Total profits during my 2015 WSOP comes to $20.1k.

The man played 203 hours in cash games and made $72 an hour. It comes to $14,616. Subtract that from the $20,100 he reported in winnings overall that means he won $5,484 in tournaments. He only played five tournaments. How many hours do you figure he put in playing those tournaments, what 30 maybe 40. If you do the math his hourly rate was higher playing tournaments then it was playing cash games hell even if he put in 60 hours playing the tournaments his earn rate was over $91 an hour and he made $72 an hour playing cash games. Seems to me tournaments produced better earnings.

In conclusion let me just say that this debate has been going on for a long time. Which has more skill cash games or tournaments, who can make more money, cash game players or tournament players and those that believe one way are never going to ever believe the other way. In the end I guess the only thing that's important is what is best for each individual player. I will go on believing that we tournament players are involved in a much higher skill game then cash game players and the cash game players will believe the reverse but when it's all said and done as long as we can make money doing something we love and be good at it the debate will continue for many years to come. Take care everyone and I'll see you at the tables.


  1. It's certainly true that you will go on believing what you believe in, but this "debate" was settled years ago.

  2. Flushdraw said...

    "$200 a day??? I had always heard that a solid win rate for a $1/$2 player was $16/hr. Is this an error?? If not based on an 8 hr session per day that only comes to $128"

    I averaged $20/hr over several thousand hours at 1/2, I am not the best player even in my home casino. Not a stretch to think someone can make $22.50/hr at 1/2.

    May be you didn't see my correction in your last post before you made this one, I realized my misread and posted new question for you regarding your comparison between 1/2 & $65 tournaments. Care to respond?

  3. That's what happened. I removed that reply on the latest entry.

  4. Flushdraw said...

    "How many hours do you figure he put in playing those tournaments, what 30 maybe 40. If you do the math his hourly rate was higher playing tournaments then it was playing cash games hell even if he put in 60 hours playing the tournaments his earn rate was over $91 an hour and he made $72 an hour playing cash games. Seems to me tournaments produced better earnings."

    Hard to say how many hours he spent playing those tournaments, but no way he would have spent 30 to 40 hours, my guess is at least double that. Just the colossus alone took about 20 hours to get to 731st place.

    Speaking of risking money, what kind of bankroll would you need to play $340 tournaments? Using conventional 100 buyins BR estimate that would be $34500. That is more than what you need for 5/10 cash game player. Of course assuming equally good player in both format.

  5. $1-3 here is worth $27 per hour over 1100+ hours. of course, its rare to find low stakes players as smart as me

    1. Your poker intelligence is only surpassed by your humbleness.

    2. I will certainly agree: it is rare to find low stakes players as smart as Tony.

    3. smart as you TBC? When did u become a stand up comedian? Cause that was some funny shit